AmbergrisCaye.com Home Forums The Cayes Ambergris Caye BOATING ACCIDENT LEAVES TWO PEOPLE INJURED

Hi All ----
The BTB and Port Authority are taking this seriously and are presently instituting a comprehensive program of signage as well as new policies for no-wake zones and for marked boating lanes.
The signs are the initiative of the BTB and will be available shortly.

Really Elbert?? I think that is a terrible attitude. As much as I generally like your posts this one was terrible! I drive a boat and watch where I'm going but I definitly have a lot of Sympathy for a tourist that was snorkeling close to a dock and had his leg cut off by a reckless captain!!

Carlos

You generally talk sense. Every once in a while you say something really stupid. This is your "piece de resistance".

You are commercial Boat Captains. It is your duty to your tourist passengers to drive them safely. The story above yours was not and the Captain and his employer (so they can do something)should have been reported. As a Captain it is your duty to watch where you are going and know who has the right of way. Similarly to a car driver. The difference is you don't have to concentrate as much as there is no road to stay on and when driving a car you never take your eyes off the road for more than two seconds. Can you say the same when driving a boat? If driving a car and somone crosses the street in front of you and you run them over it is your fault for not concentrating. Same thing in a boat even if they are swimming where they shouldn't be you should be looking for anything that shouldn't be there from people to boats to anchor lines to logs. We do need guidelines on where the boats and swimmers should be but a swimmer ALWAYS has the right of way.

Phil, while I agree in part with what your saying and that swimmers should be afforded some right of way in certain areas, I have to respectfully disagree about a total premptory swimmers right of way; particularly when it comes to swimmers far beyond what would be considered the normal scope of recreational swimming activity as was the case here.

The people were well offshore in the "normal" commercial travel zone if you will, and although the skipper, any skipper for that matter, should always be alert, a Captian should be allowed certain expectations of freedom of operative movement in such areas, particularly while in their own "freeway" so to speak.

To reuse my overly pimped freeway analogy that's why you see "No Pedestrians" signs at the entrance to freeway's. Admittedly the freeways on the waterways are different in terms of the medium and navigation but the analogy of a pedestrian being given right of way to wander about a 65 MPH freeway where, from a safety standpoint, they simply shouldnt be in the first place seems well, somewhat silly and/or impractical at best. Given that the water conditions were choppy that day and made spotting swimmers behind the chop even more difficult, consider adding a dose of fog to that wandering pedestrian analogy.

Ed's story above doesnt surprise me, there are hotdogs in cars and hotdogs in boats and there always will be, just as there will always be people who despite our best efforts to educate them or afford them "right of way" will behave with an astounding lack of common sense.

I agree with Elbert, can you imagine how that skipper felt? Christ I cant even imagine that. I've mentioned it previously and often and I'll throw in with him on that sentiment regarding the skipper today as well. I'm proabably a bit more charitably inclined towards the victim because as I see a gross failure from the standpoint of their education.

As to my overall stance, its a problem that needs to be addressed on both sides. From our own perspective we're going to start with our own guests and make sure they fully understand the concepts and dangers that are in play while swimming or snorkeling on the waters of the inner reef. You can give a swimmer all the right of way you want but they still have to excerise a modecum of common sense in areas where boats travel.

First and foremost we intend to impress the urgency of this matter on our guests. I start with our guests because I have some significant ability to have immediate contact with them. I do not have access or immediate contact with the numerous skippers licensed (hoepfully) or otherwise. I will be providing small hi vis "diver down" floats for our guests to use while snorkeling in and about our dock areas. As to the offshore areas of the inner reef commonly used for high speed boat traffic it will be impressed on our guests that those areas are indeed freeways and reserved for the operation of those vessels at those speeds. In fact I intend to start by saying that beyond the end of our dock its simply "playing in the road" and "dont play in the road". Our little local dive operator will be more than happy to provide a safe means of exploring offshore areas of the inner reef better suited to their safety and enjoyment.

Having said all this about our guests I would simply say that skippers should always keep in mind that people are, generally speaking, amazingly naive (stupid) at times and swimmers of that mental capacity may be, no, make that will be present in their boating lanes at some point. Constant vigilence is needed but even then the unthinkable may happen.

I was talking in general rather than this specific incident, as I still don't know the details of how far out these people were. Either way I stand by my points. To call them stupid and not have symapathy for them is incredulous. The man lost his leg, not his job.

I also stand by my point that a skipper should be paying attention at all times and should see people, logs or boats directly in front of them. Accidents will still happen from time to time and I'm not saying this Captain was to blame as I don't know the situation. I am saying the vigilence of Captains lacks on many occassions I'm on a boat. Watch a Capt next time you are on a boat and see if a car driver ever looks away from the road as much as a boat Captain does and tell me that this is OK.

I really hope they make all boats on plane be at least double the distance from shore to the end of the closest Dock, to afford swimmers more safety - and I'd like to see it further but it's probably unrealistic. That still will mean skippers watching where they go all the time.

There's a lot of sea for boats and not much for swimming

Forget blame. I don't doubt the skipper felt bad, but don't ask me about how he felt, ask me about the guy who lost his leg. He's the one who puts food on our table each day and we need to look after him today and tomorrow.

The Police and Port Authority have declared this a 'No Fault' accident so folks calling the Captain Reckless is exactly what I'm trying to illustrate. The poor captain was taken to the police station and the public is calling for action, calling the Captain reckless.
Poor guy did absolutely nothing wrong and I'm sure he feels real bad having run over them plus having the public condemn him, I feel real sorry for the guy, it can happen to anyone driving a boat here.
Reckless is letting the tourist have mask, snorkel and fins to swim in the traffic lane. I don't mean to single out this particular incident because all the hotels on the island send tourist out snorkeling and with kayaks, without a tour guide and that's irresponsible and reckless.
If you want to take care of tourist then send them on a snorkeling adventure with a licensed tour guide whose trained to take care of them.

and I'll simply mimic your response Phil and say that I too was speaking in general terms. I never said the victims of this case were stupid nor that I had no sympathy for them (please go back and look at my previous posts). I'd appreciate a bit more care when paraphrasing, thanks.

I was saying that in general people can be naive (even stupid) about the hazards present in an environment with which they are not familar; that they need to have those hazards impressed upon them in order for them to safely recreate. I see the cross section of humanity in my work everyday and much of the time I am not overly impressed by an abundance of common sense in people presented with unfamiliar situations. To date we have no idea what the couple were thinking, their "habitus mentis", their state of mind. How they found themsleves where they were, or if they even considered boat traffic beofre swimming out, what was their destination. That information is key and missing here. If a lawsuit is pending (independent of the BPA investigation findings) it may be years before that information is made public in discovery if at all.

Given the variability in humans, tourists and guest, when it comes to common sense, boat captains also need to be sutiably impressed and imprinted that nowadays their navigable waters are increasingly populated with these kinds of people, people who may simply not know any better. They need to be vigilent for both the swimmer and their own sake. Ways and means for boats to safely operate, with practicality, and in confidence and commerce, needs to be part of the solution as well, and that may require legisaltion down the road. But it needs to be well thought out legislation and get to the heart of the matter and only if it is determined there is a need (whether actual or politcal).

I think there is more common ground between us than you might think but I also happen to think that really digging into the specifics of this case would give you some additional perspective and add to that concensus. What I most typically have repsonded to in this thread are blanket statements and judgements which make little sense based on the facts of the case. Such as statements above that a reckless captain cut a swimmers leg off close to a dock, when that plainly was not the case, or suggestions to require boats on plane to be double the distance offshore from the end of the closest dock; what about when the next dock up or down coast might be 70 yards shorter or farther out. Then what?. Similarly blanket statements of a swimmer should always be given right of way. I'm simply perplexed by that statement? What exactly does that mean? or entail?

Would one think that a skipper upon seeing a swimmer in his immediate path, even far offshore, would even consider who has or needs right of way? "Aha! that swimmer does not have legal right of way so I'll just run his ass over!" Hell no! Given the circumstances and means availabe he's going to do everything in his power to avoid hitting that person. But suppose a swimmer is inside that double dock distance area established for boats by your own rule and we're now under the "swimmers have ultimate right of way law" and the person gets hit? Is it the Captian's fault even then? What about under conditions of poor visiblity? When is the swimmer to be held accountable for his or her actions? Or perhaps better stated, when are the swimmers actions so agregious as to preclude fault on the part of the captain? I think you've just not thought it through all the way. But I also get youre thinking with your heart.

If you want to say "hey I think the water taxis from Belize City are in way too close and always have been" or "we need to create a traffic channel exclusive to planing boat traffic inside the reef" I wouldnt have much to stand on, or argue with, and I'd be left to opine on those proposals.

If you want to propose a navigation channel as far offshore as you deem necessary by all means do so; but define it on the basis of bouys not something as variable as the nearest or farthest dock end. If you want to do something for swimmer safety get involved in promoting SPTC guest education so that when they're not in any established "boat free swimming areas" (as you've been proponing, which I commend and support) they will have the good and kind sense to stay the hell out of areas where boat traffic is fast and heavy, and at least be alert to the presence of boats.

But please when you start asking for and proposing incomplete and half thought out regulations because of a personal injury where the skipper was found free of fault, clearly in his normal course, under conditions of poor surface visibilty, it's going to get my goat everytime. Having written and enforced regulations all my career I can smell the beginnings of a bad one, even one conceived with the best of intentions, a few nautical miles off.

I'm still with Elbert; this case has been tried by the public acting as judge jury and executioner with little attention paid to the facts. I feel deeply for the couple (on their honeymoon no less) that were so seriously injured. It was life altering. However, I also have it in my mind to think of a man doing his job whom, by all official records and accounts was legally, and to the best of his abilities and circumstances, putting food on his family's table, who may now be pariah and just as "crippled" by it all within his own community. That's also a tragedy in its own right because if he did lose his job and wasn't at fault, why did that happen?

I got your back Phil. I can appreciate your concerns and your passion, really I do, but doggonit this all needs to be carefully thought out from a practical and effective standpoint on both sides of the issue.

Bear my comments were not at you. There have been other comments of reckless this, stupid that, and to be honest I still to this day have not heard difinitively where the snorkellers were. It doesn't matter either now. I'm not looking to lynch the Capt - who has been absolved of a fault/crime - and I'm not looking to tell a Tourist who lost his leg he was crazy to be where he was.

I would imagine the legacy both would like to leave is that no one follows in either of their footsteps. Legacy and footsteps are poor terms to use but I can't think of others. Lets make sure it doesn't happen again. Not for six months or a year or two. Ever.

Learn from it and act accordingly and make sure swimmers and boats are in different areas. This is a no brainer. There is no plausible argument against it. NO BOAT SHOULD BE ON THE PLANE WITHIN SEVERAL HUNDRED YARDS OF SHORE IN FRONT OF THE CAYE. Two or three Dock lengths can be rough guide for boats, no further than half the dock again for swimmers. I'd like to say half way to the Reef but there are commercial concerns too. When boats come into a dock it's off plane at walking speed/no wake speed perpendicular to the dock. That area in front of a dock is also off limit to swimmers with a simple signs. If someone is swimming where they shouldn't be they will be able to shout and be heard. Easy no skin off anyones nose except perhaps Coastal Xpress and a few others that duck in and out of a lot of Docks.

My point is a boat should see a swimmer a log, another boat an anchor chain just about every time one is in front of them in normal conditions especially in front of the Cayes. There have to be a pretty extreme set of circumstances for this not to happen. At times there will be a lack of concentration a diversion of attention a missed object etc but if the two are seperated and never in the same area it won't be a person in the water.

Bear not sure who you are, how long you have lived here or been coming. The bouys were tried and failed a few years back. No money to upkeep them and they became a hazard themselves in quick time. A simpler method is needed and to keep the boats a long way out and swimmers closer in with a big margin for error seems a logical way to do this without spending much money.

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